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"Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
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Author:  pkrussel [ Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
Hi guys

I thought this would be a good place to post a question for you experts.

I've had plenty of ETA based Breitlings and they all manually wound very smooth, no grinding or friction when winding.

However when I wind up a Chronimat GMT with the B04 movement, it grinds and feels gritty, almost like there is sand in it or its not lubricated completely. I consulted a forum friend and all three of his B01 movements feel the same exact way.

Does anyone have a technical answer or any idea why this is???

Thanks BS!

Kyle
Author:  Roffensian [ Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
I have found the movement to be stiffer, partly because it is a longer power reserve so there is more resistance to overcome within the mainspring barrel, and partly (I suspect) because of the way that the click and click spring has been implemented causing them to apply more resistance to the keyless works. IT doesn't feel 'rough' to me, but certainly not buttery smooth.
Author:  tulgs212 [ Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
pkrussel wrote:
Hi guys

I thought this would be a good place to post a question for you experts.

I've had plenty of ETA based Breitlings and they all manually wound very smooth, no grinding or friction when winding.

However when I wind up a Chronimat GMT with the B04 movement, it grinds and feels gritty, almost like there is sand in it or its not lubricated completely. I consulted a forum friend and all three of his B01 movements feel the same exact way.

Does anyone have a technical answer or any idea why this is???

Thanks BS!

Kyle


When I was at the Boutique in NYC and played with a GMT44 one felt gritty--choppy almost-- when winding while a different one felt smoother. For some reason there is some variability. On the whole it should feel smooth and not gritty. There is a clutch attached to the mainspring to protect it from over-winding. Sometimes if you wind the watch too many times (>40 + turns) that gritty feel is the clutch doing it's job.

Every automatic wind watch has a slip clutch built into the rotor/mainspring winding mechanism. Think about it. A very active person could easily have enough wrist movement to wind the mainspring to full tension and then some. So what happens then? Continued movement overwinds the watch and breaks the mainspring? Nope, the mainspring is not physically attached to the inside of the barrel, rather it rides in indents in the barrel's inner diameter so it can slip once fully wound.

On June 16, 1863, Adrien Philippe (of Patek Philippe) is credited with Patent No.58941, for the "slipping mainspring". This particular invention allowed the simultaneous winding of two or more mainspring barrels, certainly a different invention with a different purpose. However, the technology of his invention is said to be the foundation for the development of self-winding wristwatches.

The Slipping Spring

This "slipping" spring allows the mainspring to slide or slip a few degrees relative to the inside of the barrel while still staying fully wound. The end of the slipping spring moves from one groove to another on the inside the barrel, stopping each time, and thus keeping the spring under constant tension.

This attachment of spring steel is sometimes referred to as a “bridle”. This bridle slips along the barrel wall before excess pressure is passed to the going train and causing a defect known as “banking.” Banking occurs when the balance amplitude is too high and the impulse jewel strikes the back of the horns of the pallet fork. The “bridle” must also grip the barrel wall sufficiently to not slip down either too rapidly, or too slowly, a defect known as “mainspring creep” which results in a shortened reserve power time.

The slipping bridle on the outer end of the mainspring is illustrated here. (1). the bridle (in the barrel), (2) maintains outward pressure on the outermost coil of the mainspring (3). At less than full wind, the bridle pressure causes the outer tip of the spring to catch in a notch in the barrel wall (4) and maintain its position. As the mainspring reaches full wind, the outer end of the spring jumps out of the notch and releases tension by slipping across the smooth section of the barrel wall (5) until it catches in the next notch

Attachment:
rolex.mainspring & barrel.jpg


If you let your watch wind down and stop...then try to wind it up again and it feels gritty then you should have a watchmaker look at it.
Author:  Roffensian [ Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
Holy mis-googling batman!

The fact that the mainspring is only attached at one end (which is really all that is going on in an automatic) should not be causing a gritty feel to the winding. Overwind protection exists in every single automatic watch including the ETAs that the OP referenced as not having the same feeling.
Author:  wessa [ Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
The 01 is significantly noisier when hand wound then any other watch I've handled.
The fact that it is the same on all three 01s that I have does indicate to me that it is normal.
Author:  pkrussel [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
Thank you gentleman for your comments and help. I feel much better knowing that this is normal for the B01s and B04s. I knew this is the right place to talk to the experts and find an answer.

Thank you for your time and dedication to this awesome forum where us Breitling enthusiasts cane come together and talk about what we all have in common!
Author:  sharkman [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
Roffensian wrote:
Holy mis-googling batman!

The fact that the mainspring is only attached at one end (which is really all that is going on in an automatic) should not be causing a gritty feel to the winding. Overwind protection exists in every single automatic watch including the ETAs that the OP referenced as not having the same feeling.



:uplaugh: Can't say I've ever felt a gritty, sandy reisitence opon overwinding any automatic. :rofl:
Author:  46crew [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
I had the same observation of "gritty" winding with my B04 GMT, so it's probably normal. (though a pain to get the crown to set sometimes) I don't have that issue with my buttery-smooth Rolexes. :wink: Just sayin'...... :)
Author:  mfserge [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
46crew wrote:
I don't have that issue with my buttery-smooth Rolexes. :wink: Just sayin'...... :)


Best winding movement I've ever had was my old Breguet XXI, the feel that it had was pretty cool.
Author:  sharkman [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
mfserge wrote:
46crew wrote:
I don't have that issue with my buttery-smooth Rolexes. :wink: Just sayin'...... :)


Best winding movement I've ever had was my old Breguet XXI, the feel that it had was pretty cool.



It was practically erotic! :shock:
Author:  tulgs212 [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
sharkman wrote:
Roffensian wrote:
Holy mis-googling batman!

The fact that the mainspring is only attached at one end (which is really all that is going on in an automatic) should not be causing a gritty feel to the winding. Overwind protection exists in every single automatic watch including the ETAs that the OP referenced as not having the same feeling.



:uplaugh: Can't say I've ever felt a gritty, sandy reisitence opon overwinding any automatic. :rofl:


X2. My B04 is very smooth to wind, albeit a little stiffer than my B49 movement. Like I said, it should NOT feel gritty/or jumpy when winding it from a dead stop. Each turn of the crown should feel smooth. If it feels gritty then perhaps it may require some lubricant which is a very easy fix. And that is no mis-googling. :michaelangelo:
Author:  tulgs212 [ Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
Kyle, there are many knowledgeable people on this forum--some a bit more critical than others--but on the whole all very helpful and responsive people. But the fact is that not even a doctor is capable of accurately diagnosing a problem (either over the phone or over the internet) without actually seeing you--no one. If something doesn't seem right to you...especially since these watches are so expensive...then take it to a certified watchmaker for his/her opinion. I got advice on this forum that it was perfectly acceptable for my B04 to date change at 11:45pm. Point is, it bothered me so I took it to a watchmaker for an in-person diagnosis. I showed it to Breitling and they said that it was in fact not a normal occurrence. In the end, they addressed all my concerns and now I am proud to say my B04 changes date exactly at 11:57pm. My B04 is smooth to wind (no gritty feel) and just as smooth as my Rolex watches--but as it has been said above it seems to take a little bit more effort to physically wind the crown. It's nice to take a poll of what others think, but just keep in mind what may bother one person will not be bothersome to someone else---it's all a matter of personal preference. If it were me, I would take your watch to a watchmaker. I am of the mindset that if I buy an expensive watch, it should behave like an expensive watch. But hey, that's just my opinion. Good luck with whatever you decide.
Author:  Roffensian [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
Fair enough, but.....

The vast majority of us provide the best possible advice that we can. Suggesting that a gritty feeling is due to bad lubrication is highly unlikely, and to suggest that it is caused by overwind protection is flat out inaccurate, no matter how many 2005 magazine articles you quote or how many Timezone pictures you post!
Author:  tulgs212 [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
Roff, thank you for taking down your previous post last night and re-posting a softer version. Much appreciated. You were quick to give advice about the B04 15 minute early time change, you were quick to give advice about having an invalid COSC certificate--both of which were later discovered to be inaccurate--and you were quick about your mis-googling comment which I was first offended then humored by. I was simply trying to pass along advice that was given to me by Rolex RSC when I felt a gritty/jumpy sensation when winding my Oyster Datejust following a service (which was addressed only because I had the good sense to ask questions). The first thing the Breitling watchmaker told me when I emailed him about my 15 minute time change question was that it is impossible for him to diagnose my issue without examining the watch it since there may be a series of factors that is could be the cause of the issue. I mean no disrespect since we all are on this forum to learn. Isn't the concept of a forum supposed to be a place for the friendly exchange of ideas and discussion topics in a respectful manner. A student shouldn't feel like he or she can't participate in a discussion without fear of being accused of saying something stupid or inaccurate. Your advice to goes both ways....all we can do here is offer our opinions especially since most of us are just watch lovers and not watchmakers.
Author:  Roffensian [ Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Rough" B01/B04 manual winding?
tulgs212 wrote:
Roff, thank you for taking down your previous post last night and re-posting a softer version. Much appreciated. You were quick to give advice about the B04 15 minute early time change, you were quick to give advice about having an invalid COSC certificate--both of which were later discovered to be inaccurate--and you were quick about your mis-googling comment which I was first offended then humored by. I was simply trying to pass along advice that was given to me by Rolex RSC when I felt a gritty/jumpy sensation when winding my Oyster Datejust following a service (which was addressed only because I had the good sense to ask questions). The first thing the Breitling watchmaker told me when I emailed him about my 15 minute time change question was that it is impossible for him to diagnose my issue without examining the watch it since there may be a series of factors that is could be the cause of the issue. I mean no disrespect since we all are on this forum to learn. Isn't the concept of a forum supposed to be a place for the friendly exchange of ideas and discussion topics in a respectful manner. A student shouldn't feel like he or she can't participate in a discussion without fear of being accused of saying something stupid or inaccurate. Your advice to goes both ways....all we can do here is offer our opinions especially since most of us are just watch lovers and not watchmakers.



I will stand by my comment that a 15 minute early date change is not an issue. Could it be improved - clearly, but I don't think that this would be deemed to be an issue by Breitling, nor should it.

As for COSC, to be honest you will need to remind me. The only recent evolution in COSCs that I recall is the new e-certificate thing where I initially expressed significant doubts but certainly didn't offer a definitive statement.
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