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COSC certification
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Author:  In2Deep [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  COSC certification
Here's a question: what does COSC certification really mean to you?

Apparently COSC certification has a shelf life. It expires once you get your watch serviced. It is possible to get your watch re-certified after servicing. And I hear the COSC certification process only costs Breitling $35 or so to get done.

There are plenty of watches out there that are built to high tolerances but do not have the COSC certificate. So assuming all of that is accurate, what does it really mean to have the COSC certification?
Author:  veilsidegs3 [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:04 am ]
Post subject: 
I think its just reassurance you that you purchased the REAL Deal and knowing that you have the cert of authenticity....also GREAT for resale...
Author:  Africoz [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:45 am ]
Post subject: 
To me it means marketing hype and an excuse to inflate the price of the watch. Whilst a COSC rating might mean the watch keeps slightly better time (a few seconds per day, perhaps) than a non-rated movement, it's no guarantee, and plenty of non-rated movements from quality-brand makers (e.g. Fortis, Doxa, Sinn etc etc etc) can be regulated to within COSC "chronometer" specs for daily variation.

Frankly, I'm not convinced that brands like Rolex and Breitling actually send every movement (and it's the movements that are tested, not the completed watch) they make for testing. Perhaps they do, but with the sheer volume of "chronometers" that Rolex, Omega & Breitling manufacture in a year (Rolex alone makes over a million), I sincerely doubt it. That ol' COSC lab over there in Switzerland must be one very busy place with somewhere between 5-10,000 movements arriving for testing each day just from those 3 manufacturers! And each one gets tested and certified/checked in several positions, at 3 temperatures over a period of days? Yeah, right. And what happens to the movements that don't achieve the required numbers? Do they get thrown away?

Call me a cynic, but I think all this "superlative chronometer/ chronometre certife" stuff is a load of bull, and in reality is nothing more than a quality standard (like an ISOxxxx). Omega and Breitling do the "chronometer" thing these days because Rolex does it and because Rolex has become the most desired/aspired-to watch brand in the world. The words "Superlative Chronometer Officially Certified" have sold literally millions of watches for Rolex, and the big "O" and the big "B" want a piece of the action (and it's working for them, too). Can't blame them for that!

The term "chronometer", so far as watches are concerned, is basically meaningless these days. The only true "chronometer" is a certified "Marine Chronometer" and the only place currently doing those certifications (for time pieces certified for use as marine chronometers) as far as I know is the Besancon National Observatory in France. To get the "Marine Chronometer" certification (i.e. accurate enough for use in celestial navigation at sea) requires rigourous testing over a period of 47 days and the only watch (that I know of) that is a true, certified, marine chronometer is the quartz Piquot Meridien certified accurate to +/- 10 seconds per year. Mind you, my 5 year old $300 Seiko 8F56 Perpetual Calendar keeps time to better than a second a month despite the complete absence of the word "chronometer" appearing anywhere on the watch, or in it's accompanying manual.

Don't get me wrong, I am fan of all 3 of the big "chronometer" manufacturers. I've owned an Omega and a Rolex, and I hope to own a Breitling soon (but not because it's a so-called "chronometer").
Author:  Jerome [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: COSC certification
In2Deep wrote:

Apparently COSC certification has a shelf life. It expires once you get your watch serviced. It is possible to get your watch re-certified after servicing.



I'm of the belief that all modern watches either it be certified or not will or can be calibrated to well within Chronometer specs. I think the chronometer certification lost is luster now that most watches/movements are mass produced and the likelihood of deviation from one piece to the other is drastically reduced due to quality control and demand for product consistency.

In addition I believe with COSC only the movement is tested. Whereas a company like Jaeger-Lecoultre have their own testing with the watch cased up.

Nevertheless I had been interested in knowing about the after service aspect of the certification and send the following question to Breitling service and received the following response.

Q:
I have a Breitling SuperOcean (purchased 2003) that I will be bringing in for service and was wondering if its re certified after it has been serviced. Or is it a situation where once the movement is initially certified its considered certified thereafter.

Please and thank you
Jerome

A:
"Dear Mr. ,

You are correct; a certified chronometer movement will still be a certified chronometer movement after it has been serviced.

We look forward to be of further service to you and remain at your disposal for any further information.

Yours faithfully,

Breitling After-sales Service
40 Hayden Street
Toronto, Ontario"

Cheers..
Jerome
Author:  Roffensian [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Wow, some surprising posts here.

Every Breitling movement is COSC certified. Every one!

The COSC certificate that is issued may have Breitlings name on it, but it is issued on behalf of the COSC which is a completely independent body. I don't think that the COSC would be very happy if someone started issuing certificates with their name on unless they had the right - to suggest otherwise is essentially suggesting that Breitling is issuing fake paperwork with their watches.

What does COSC certification mean - well, it's evidence that the movement met a series of very stringent tests over a period of days, at different temperatures and in different positions. It is a one time test on the movement, but goes with that movement for life. It is not negated by a service. The only time that a movement needs to be recertified is if a request for a second duplicate certificate is made. COSC will require recertification of the movement before issuing that.

Are Breitling movements better because they are COSC certified - not necessarily. We all know that Breitling buy ebauche movements and then modify, but each movement is available in different 'levels' - essentially tighter tolerances. Breitling always buy the highes quality 'level' which is designed to be produced within COSC tolerances (but is not certified before Breitling take delivery). Other manufacturers buy the same quality level, some of them certify and some don't.

Look at the number of high quality manufacturers who do not submit some (or any) of their watches for certification - it isn't the only standard of quality, but it certainly doesn't hurt - if there are two identical Breitlings for sale on the secondary market, one with the COSC certicate and one without - the papered one will sell for more.

What does it cost - no idea. $35 seems low, but it's possible - I'd be looking for a pretty big discount if I was putting nearly 200,000 movements a year through them - rephrase the statement as "Breitling spends over $6 million a year on COSC" and it sounds rather different doesn't it!
Author:  kingsfall [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:19 am ]
Post subject: 
i agree that cosc certification is mostly marketing hype. many quality manufacturers have good enough quality control that their watches stay well within cosc spec, and they dont feel the need to prove themselves.

however, i think the notion that the cosc doesnt actually perform their tests is absolutely ridiculous. of course they do. its not as if its super labor intensive, its all done by machines. obviously they dont throw away movements either. any movement that doesnt pass is probably retweaked by the manufacturer that sent it in, and resubmitted for certification.
Author:  Roffensian [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Oh, and courtesy of Admin's blog:

How many Chronometers were certified in 2006? According to the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry, the COSC certifications added up to 1,300,140 Chronometers.

The leaders of the pack still remain the same with Rolex, Omega followed by Breitling. Here is a complete list of all the companies with more than 1000:

Rolex (710,752)
Omega (257,187)
Breitling (182,223)
Panerai (46,454)
Chopard (23,462)
Ulysse Nardin (10,111)
Corum (8,189)
TAG Heuer (7,450)
Chanel (6,980)
Mido (5,722)
Porsche Design (3,892)
Bulgari (3,698)
Ebel (3,516)
Montblanc (3,471),
Invicta (2,717)
Titoni (2,018)
Zenith (1,917)
Rado (1,805)
Eterna (1,706)
Enicar (1,672)
Paul Picot (1,638)
Sinn (1,596)
Christian Dior (1,100)

All others had less than 1000.

Increase of 10.7% overall which is fantastic. Breitling in particular issues by far more Quartz Chronometers than anyone else. Of 56,225 quartz certificates, 54,744 of them were for Breitling. That represents over 97% of total Quartz Chronometre output! Congrats to Breitling!

Another figure you can get out of these stats for Breitling is that just a hair over 30% of all Breitlings sent in for COSC certification were Quartz! That’s a very large percentage!

*************

And incidentally - Rolex and Omega do not send every movement for testing, Breitling does.
Author:  Jerome [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:49 am ]
Post subject: 
Roffensian wrote:
Wow, some surprising posts here.

Every Breitling movement is COSC certified. Every one!

Roffensian,

Wouldnt it be safer to say that after the year 2000 every Breitling movement is COSC?
Author:  In2Deep [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Wow, I had no idea that almost a third of the watches Breitling makes are SuperQuartz... that's a whole lot of watches being sent back in for battery replacements etc :shock:
Author:  RJRJRJ [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Anybody who believes that EVERY modern watch can be regulated within COSC specs is just plain wrong. Some may come close at some point in the regulation, but being able to consistently stay within those tolerances over a longer period of time is much different. And some, just simply cannot be so accurate in the first place. The certificate means nothing, other than that when tested, your specific movement passed all tests. Its an idea of what its capable. Its also a guarantee. It nice to know that the manufacturer takes the extra steps to have this done. Im sure some other manufacturers could have their movements pass, so why dont they send them? The "they know it means nothing" answer wont cut it. At the end of the day, if my watch is running too fast or slow, I know I can have it regulated to within those GUARANTEED specs for free (under warranty, of course).

At the end of the day, its just an extra step that was taken to ensure that youre getting a good product. Does it mean the world? No. But I like it :D
Author:  Roffensian [ Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jerome wrote:
Roffensian wrote:
Wow, some surprising posts here.

Every Breitling movement is COSC certified. Every one!

Roffensian,

Wouldnt it be safer to say that after the year 2000 every Breitling movement is COSC?


I stand corrected.
Author:  Driver8 [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:28 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm with Roff on this one. There is no doubt in my mind that a COSC certificate is a very good thing for a watch to have. Apart from meaning that a watch movement itself has been subjected to the series of COSC tests, it also show a confidence on behalf of the manufacturer that they believe in their movements and their QC processes. To me it shows a dedication to their art.

Yes, putting Chronometre Certifie on the dial is a form of marketing, but then why not? The watch IS Chronometer certified.... (I have a bit of a problem with Rolex's "Superlative" Chronometer, because if it's a Chronometer then it's a Chronometer, nothing more nothing less..... there's nothing superlative about it! But even so, they are entitled to use the fruits of their development labour in marketing their watches).

I also agree that a COSC certificate isn't the ONLY sign of a quality watch. Some high end manufacturers don't bother with the certification process.... but when all is said and done, it can't hurt can it.
Author:  Roffensian [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:16 am ]
Post subject: 
The English version of the COSC website is here - http://www.cosc.ch/portrait.php?lang=en

Some pretty interesting stuff - the details of the process and tolerances of certification for both mechanical and quartz are in the Chronometer section.
Author:  Africoz [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:53 am ]
Post subject: 
On the subject of marketing hype, does anyone really believe it actually takes 10 months to make a Breitling chronograph? (Chronolog 08, page 110, "Merciless testing")
Author:  peezie [ Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:55 am ]
Post subject: 
I think as long as every movement is calibrated to a reference standard, and QC applied to every fourth or fifth movement for verification, should be sufficient. It isn't like Breitling's QC is in question here, so I don't see the need for intense scrutiny.

BTW - EVERY company employs marketing "hype" in some manner. All the better when the "hype" is grounded in fact. :wink:
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