The Breitling Watch Source Forums :: View topic - Difference between Valjoux movement types??

The high grade V7750 Breitling uses in their caliber B13 pieces has subdials at 6, 9, and 12 o'clock and it features the "quickset" date change complication. When the B13 caliber is modified to the B23 caliber the subdials are rearranged to the "tircompax" configuration of 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions. This change loses some of the real estate internal to the V7750 necessiating removal of the "quickset" complication. Breltiling changed the caliber from 13 to 23 for the basic "Navitimer" in 2003 to more closely replicate the "original" Navitimer's of the early 1950's. Many enthusiasts feel the "tricompax" subdial positioning is more "classic" for aviation chronographs. I personally prefer the caliber 13 positioning because the subdials seem to aesthetically "balance" better in relation to the crown and pushers. Further, the "quickset" complication is a favorite of mine. Give me a an A13322 Navi over an A23322 Navi anyday! Bottom line, exact same motor, just different subdial positions and a complication loss.
Best,
Ron

So the impression I get is that the terms "movement number" and "caliber" are interchangeable. Ron (O2AFAC67) refers to them interchangeably above. A Valjoux 7750 movement is called the Caliber B13 by Breitling and the Val movement number 7753 is called a caliber B23 when it get's into Breitling's hands for marketing the reasons you mentioned above. I think Omega did the same thing befor emaking their own in house mvts. Am I correct about the use of caliber & movement numbers?

A discussion of 'which movement is better' rapidly becomes a very subjective argument.

Let's start with a few basics and let me know if you want me to take it in another direction..........

As Sharky says the 7750 and the 7753 are essentially the same movement - minor differences for the date.

There are really two different types of movement that Breitling use (excluding the B01) - modular movements and integrated movements.

Modular movements like the ETA 2892-A2 based movements are designed as a watch movement with the ability to 'bolt on' additional modules - chronograph, moon phase, perpetual / semi-perpetual, etc as well as other complications that Breitling don't currently use - power reserve for example.

Integrated movements like the 7750 based movements are designed from the ground up for their function - a chronograph in that case. As a general rule of thumb the pushers line up with the crown on an integrated movement (if you look side on), but not on a modular movement.

Additionally, these movements (ETA and Valjoux are the same company) come in three grades. Basically the grades relate to the fineness of the working / tolerances of the machining. Only the highest grade is designed to be capable of meeting COSC standards, and that's the grade that Breitling uses.

Finally, Breitling buys ebauches - kits, and then replaces or reworks some of the parts to their standards. This is a process that is threatened (and is part of the reason why the B01 was introduced) because Swatch Groups (that owns ETA / Valjoux) have stated that they will stop selling ebauches to companies outside of the Swatch Group by the end of 2010. There is still some scepticism that will actually happen (at least on that timetable), but it will likely happen at some point.

so do most members of the forum think Breitling in-house movements (ones actually made by Breitling, not re-named by them) are/will be better quality than ETA movements (at the COSC certified level of quality)?

Author:	Omega21 [ Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Difference between Valjoux movement types??
I read that unlike the SO Chronos which use a Valjoux 7750 automatic movement, the Superocean Heritage Chronograph Limited Edition uses a Breitling Caliber 23, which is a Valjoux 7753 automatic mechanical movement. I'm strongly considering buying a SOHLE and am wondering about the Caliber 23 vs the 7750. Could someone please enlighten me about the pros & cons of one movement versus the other? I'm sure they are both good 'instuments' (I own a 1970s LeJour chrono with V7750), just want to understand the differences between the two please. Thanks in advance!

Author:	Sharkmouth [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
There are others on here with infinitely more knowledge of movements than me but my understanding is the 7753 is simply a 7750 with an extra gear to move the date from the 3 o'clock position to (usually) 4.5 or, in the case of the SOHCLE, 6.

Author:	Roffensian [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
A discussion of 'which movement is better' rapidly becomes a very subjective argument. Let's start with a few basics and let me know if you want me to take it in another direction.......... As Sharky says the 7750 and the 7753 are essentially the same movement - minor differences for the date. There are really two different types of movement that Breitling use (excluding the B01) - modular movements and integrated movements. Modular movements like the ETA 2892-A2 based movements are designed as a watch movement with the ability to 'bolt on' additional modules - chronograph, moon phase, perpetual / semi-perpetual, etc as well as other complications that Breitling don't currently use - power reserve for example. Integrated movements like the 7750 based movements are designed from the ground up for their function - a chronograph in that case. As a general rule of thumb the pushers line up with the crown on an integrated movement (if you look side on), but not on a modular movement. Additionally, these movements (ETA and Valjoux are the same company) come in three grades. Basically the grades relate to the fineness of the working / tolerances of the machining. Only the highest grade is designed to be capable of meeting COSC standards, and that's the grade that Breitling uses. Finally, Breitling buys ebauches - kits, and then replaces or reworks some of the parts to their standards. This is a process that is threatened (and is part of the reason why the B01 was introduced) because Swatch Groups (that owns ETA / Valjoux) have stated that they will stop selling ebauches to companies outside of the Swatch Group by the end of 2010. There is still some scepticism that will actually happen (at least on that timetable), but it will likely happen at some point.

Author:	O2AFAC67 [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
The high grade V7750 Breitling uses in their caliber B13 pieces has subdials at 6, 9, and 12 o'clock and it features the "quickset" date change complication. When the B13 caliber is modified to the B23 caliber the subdials are rearranged to the "tircompax" configuration of 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions. This change loses some of the real estate internal to the V7750 necessiating removal of the "quickset" complication. Breltiling changed the caliber from 13 to 23 for the basic "Navitimer" in 2003 to more closely replicate the "original" Navitimer's of the early 1950's. Many enthusiasts feel the "tricompax" subdial positioning is more "classic" for aviation chronographs. I personally prefer the caliber 13 positioning because the subdials seem to aesthetically "balance" better in relation to the crown and pushers. Further, the "quickset" complication is a favorite of mine. Give me a an A13322 Navi over an A23322 Navi anyday! Bottom line, exact same motor, just different subdial positions and a complication loss. Best, Ron

Author:	Roffensian [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
O2AFAC67 wrote: The high grade V7750 Breitling uses in their caliber B13 pieces has subdials at 6, 9, and 12 o'clock and it features the "quickset" date change complication. When the B13 caliber is modified to the B23 caliber the subdials are rearranged to the "tircompax" configuration of 3, 6, and 9 o'clock positions. This change loses some of the real estate internal to the V7750 necessiating removal of the "quickset" complication. Breltiling changed the caliber from 13 to 23 for the basic "Navitimer" in 2003 to more closely replicate the "original" Navitimer's of the early 1950's. Many enthusiasts feel the "tricompax" subdial positioning is more "classic" for aviation chronographs. I personally prefer the caliber 13 positioning because the subdials seem to aesthetically "balance" better in relation to the crown and pushers. Further, the "quickset" complication is a favorite of mine. Give me a an A13322 Navi over an A23322 Navi anyday! Bottom line, exact same motor, just different subdial positions and a complication loss. Best, Ron Forgot the quickset I have to disagree with you on the 13 over the 23 though Ron, but then I am a traditionalist.

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Author:	Omega21 [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
Ok, all this makes imminently

Author:	Omega21 [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
Sorry, trying to type while my 8 month old tries to take the mouse away and chew on the wire. Because why would you play with toys? Anyway, all this makes imminently good sense by way of differentiation. I am aware of what ebouches are but did not know the 2 categories (modular & integrated) at all - that was very helpful - thank you. Also I didn't know ETA & Val were the same... What I am not following is the caliber component of the discussion. If the movement number (7750 vs 775X) differentiates where the complications & date lay, why then are we indicating the same difference within the same movement number but using caliber e.g. 7750 cal X vs 7750 cal Y? Simply, when is caliber used versus when is movement number used (to describe a movement)?

Author:	jlee5050 [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
Very interesting... So in a way would ebauches be a fair comparison to let's say automobile chassis and one chassis used to make a few different models? Don't mean to digress off the subject of watches but trying to picture it all in my head right now...

Author:	Sharkmouth [ Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
@Omega21 - ETA (formerly Valjoux) use the numbers 7750/7753/2824/2892 etc for their movements. Breitling modify them and refer to them by their own number system which means, I think (others will correct me if not!), the modified 7750 is called the B13 by Breitling and the 7753 a B23. And I love the way real life with an 8 month old intrudes on our discussion! @jlee - I think of it more like AMG taking an already great engine made by Mercedes and souping it up so it's even better!

Author:	Roffensian [ Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
The problem with movement / calibre numbers comes from the fact that there are two companies involved - ETA / Valjoux that produce the base calibre and then Breitling that modify them. The use of a Breitling movement number is really marketing - they don't want to advertise a watch as having a Valjoux 7750, Breitling 13 is more appropriate for them. In terms of ebauches, well things get a little complicated......... Technically an ebauche (there's an acute accent on the first e, but not on my keyboard ) consists of the plates, bridges drive train and keyless works in kit form. It does not include the mainspring / mainspring barrel or the escapement so you can't produce a working watch movement simply by assembling an ebauche. If you add those elements then you technically have a chablon (still in kit form), which can be assembled into a working movement. I'm not sure whether Swatch sell ebauches or chablons (or both), the two both tend to be referred to as ebauches even though they are different. My suspicion is that chablons are usually provided as some manufacturers don't modify the movements (although in that case they could just purchase completed / assembled movements). Sharky's comparison to AMG is probably more accurate, although that does require a chablon base - an ebauche isn't a complete 'engine'. Confused yet?

Author:	Omega21 [ Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
So the impression I get is that the terms "movement number" and "caliber" are interchangeable. Ron (O2AFAC67) refers to them interchangeably above. A Valjoux 7750 movement is called the Caliber B13 by Breitling and the Val movement number 7753 is called a caliber B23 when it get's into Breitling's hands for marketing the reasons you mentioned above. I think Omega did the same thing befor emaking their own in house mvts. Am I correct about the use of caliber & movement numbers?

Author:	Roffensian [ Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
Omega21 wrote: So the impression I get is that the terms "movement number" and "caliber" are interchangeable. Ron (O2AFAC67) refers to them interchangeably above. A Valjoux 7750 movement is called the Caliber B13 by Breitling and the Val movement number 7753 is called a caliber B23 when it get's into Breitling's hands for marketing the reasons you mentioned above. I think Omega did the same thing befor emaking their own in house mvts. Am I correct about the use of caliber & movement numbers? Pretty much. If we are strictly accurate a movement is a single example of the assembled thing that makes a watch work, calibre (or caiber) is the type of thing, but they are generally considered interchangeable.

Author:	Omega21 [ Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
so do most members of the forum think Breitling in-house movements (ones actually made by Breitling, not re-named by them) are/will be better quality than ETA movements (at the COSC certified level of quality)?

Author:	Altair [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
Roffensian wrote: A discussion of 'which movement is better' rapidly becomes a very subjective argument. Let's start with a few basics and let me know if you want me to take it in another direction.......... As Sharky says the 7750 and the 7753 are essentially the same movement - minor differences for the date. There are really two different types of movement that Breitling use (excluding the B01) - modular movements and integrated movements. Modular movements like the ETA 2892-A2 based movements are designed as a watch movement with the ability to 'bolt on' additional modules - chronograph, moon phase, perpetual / semi-perpetual, etc as well as other complications that Breitling don't currently use - power reserve for example. Integrated movements like the 7750 based movements are designed from the ground up for their function - a chronograph in that case. As a general rule of thumb the pushers line up with the crown on an integrated movement (if you look side on), but not on a modular movement. Additionally, these movements (ETA and Valjoux are the same company) come in three grades. Basically the grades relate to the fineness of the working / tolerances of the machining. Only the highest grade is designed to be capable of meeting COSC standards, and that's the grade that Breitling uses. Finally, Breitling buys ebauches - kits, and then replaces or reworks some of the parts to their standards. This is a process that is threatened (and is part of the reason why the B01 was introduced) because Swatch Groups (that owns ETA / Valjoux) have stated that they will stop selling ebauches to companies outside of the Swatch Group by the end of 2010. There is still some scepticism that will actually happen (at least on that timetable), but it will likely happen at some point. Golden post right there Roff, short, concise, and very informative. Decidely "Roffian". In fact this entire post has been very informative, thanks to the opriginal poster.

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Author:	bnewbie [ Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Difference between Valjoux movement types??
Omega21 wrote: so do most members of the forum think Breitling in-house movements (ones actually made by Breitling, not re-named by them) are/will be better quality than ETA movements (at the COSC certified level of quality)? The only in-house movement by Breitling is B01.