The Breitling Watch Source Forums :: View topic - B-1 accuracy pre/post service

Thank you for the welcome!

The model number is actually A68362, and it came with an "Attestation de Chronometre" certificate (not sure what that attests to, to be honest).

I have little faith in BUK's testing standards, unfortunately - for them not to notice that the second hand was jammed after a service suggests a certain lack of quality, and there was a history of other servicing associated problems with this watch and with 3 Aerospaces - so I only send my watches to them with reluctance these days.

But from what you say it should be possible to achieve better performance than 120 seconds/year and it is reasonable to expect them to regulate this example?

Is each movement (as opposed to case) individually numbered?

They then made the fairly surprising statement that the COSC certificate probably did not apply to this watch....! Yes, with the serial numbers on certificate and caseback matching...

Your AD is an idiot.

Breitling claim + / - 15 seconds a year for quartz COSC, but it's not really that simple. Because quartz accuracy is dependent on temperature the COSC standard for quartz isn't as simple as the -4 / +6 for mechanical.

The exact standard is + / - 0.2 seconds per day at each of 8 and 38 celsius and + / - 0.07 seconds per day at 23 celsius.

Roffensian wrote:

I believe Breitling quote +-15sec/yr for their (current) SQ thermo-compensated quartz movements - the model discussed here a A6xxxx is non-SQ - so the variance may be greater than that stated on the Breitling site. It's one reason I went for a SQ B-1 when they first came out - my non-SQ version was gaining +1sec every 3days..

Roffensian wrote:

MartynJC (UK) wrote:

Roffensian wrote:

Agreed - it is non-SQ, but it is the A68362 (which is supposed to be COSC compliant) rather than the A68062 (which is not).

0.2 seconds/day = 73 sec/year, and 0.07/day = 25 sec/year. These are COSC standards rather than Breitling claims.

Mine is currently at 120 sec/year, compared with its original (pre-service 1, or 2) performance of better than 20 seconds/year. I need to find my spreadsheet log to give you the exact numbers (on an old PC somewhere).

Author:	Tony B [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:16 am ]
Post subject:	B-1 accuracy pre/post service
I bought my B-1 new in January 2001, and for the first 3 or so years that I had it, the accuracy seemed to be so good that errors were difficult to measure in periods of less than several months. I kept a log for a while and I seem to recall that it gained/lost less than 1 second a month. So I was entirely satisfied. Then the battery needed replacement so I had to send it back to Breitling UK for a service. This was when the problems started. I will not bore you with all the details, but once I had finally got it back in a (seemingly) satisfactory state from the service, the previous level of accuracy had gone completely. Now it was losing 2 to 3 seconds per day. I was not happy but decided to live with it. Another battery cycle later and we are in 2008, and the watch goes for another service. After a round of problems (firstly returned to me with a battery which lasted for less than a month, then it comes back with a jammed second hand) which reduced my faith in Breitling QC I finally get my watch back and it seems to be losing even more time than before. This time I complain to the retailer and (as they have been aware of the sequence of multiple returns) we agree to monitor performance this time around. Over 11 months, after initially seemingly losing more than 5 seconds per day, the watch has settled down and lost a total of 110 seconds, so an extrapolated average of 120 seconds per year. 1st Question - is this acceptable for this watch? 2nd Question - how could the performance vary so much between the initial very accurate period (when it was on its original battery and therefore untouched by the service operation) and post service? 3rd Question - is it possible the Breitling service people put a different movement into the case at each service? 4th Question - is it possible to regulate this movement to achieve the original level of accuracy? Many thanks in advance! Tony B

Author:	Roffensian [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
Welcome to BreitlingSource! First off I am assuming that this is a non COSC watch - model number A68062? In that case there is no 'guarantee' of accuracy like the COSC would provide (complicated for quartz, but around 10 seconds per year)., but 2 minutes a year is not acceptable. If my assumption of model is correct then this is a regular quartz movement rather than a thermocompensated quartz and therefore accuracy is impacted by extremes of temperature - that's the nature of quartz. Accuracy can be impacted by many different factors and it's entirely possible that accuracy was impacted during the servicing operation, although that should have been testing before the watch left Breitling. That said, it's also possible that a bang in shipping impacted the accuracy after leaving Breitling. It's possible that Breitling replaced the movement, depending on the nature of problems found during servicing they could do that, but not without you knowing - they would have charged you for it for a start. The watch can be regulated, although the AD may not be able to do it.

Author:	Tony B [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
Thank you for the welcome! The model number is actually A68362, and it came with an "Attestation de Chronometre" certificate (not sure what that attests to, to be honest). I have little faith in BUK's testing standards, unfortunately - for them not to notice that the second hand was jammed after a service suggests a certain lack of quality, and there was a history of other servicing associated problems with this watch and with 3 Aerospaces - so I only send my watches to them with reluctance these days. But from what you say it should be possible to achieve better performance than 120 seconds/year and it is reasonable to expect them to regulate this example? Is each movement (as opposed to case) individually numbered?

Author:	Roffensian [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
Tony B wrote: Thank you for the welcome! The model number is actually A68362, and it came with an "Attestation de Chronometre" certificate (not sure what that attests to, to be honest). I have little faith in BUK's testing standards, unfortunately - for them not to notice that the second hand was jammed after a service suggests a certain lack of quality, and there was a history of other servicing associated problems with this watch and with 3 Aerospaces - so I only send my watches to them with reluctance these days. But from what you say it should be possible to achieve better performance than 120 seconds/year and it is reasonable to expect them to regulate this example? Is each movement (as opposed to case) individually numbered? OK so that it COSC certified - that's what the certificate indicates, so it should be accurate to around 10 seconds a year. I believe that there is a serial on the movement as well as the caseback.

Author:	Tony B [ Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
That's great - many thanks for the advice. The AD is happy to help me, but it is always good to be armed with the facts!

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Author:	Tony B [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
A quick update. Visited the retailer yesterday and advised them that I wanted to take this up with Breitling UK, as the accuracy was not acceptable. The person that I had been dealing with immediately after the return from the last service was not around (on vacation I think) and the staff who took my enquiry first said: "+6/-4 per day" (or maybe the other way around?). When I queried this, as I believed this to be the mechanical standard, they went away and got hold of some Breitling material, changing their statement to: "+/- 150 seconds/year" I then showed them the COSC certificate for this watch, and the COSC standards as published on their website, saying that I believed these standards should therefore apply to this watch, and reminded them that, pre-servicing, this watch had been almost perfect, with errors over several months being too small to measure. They then made the fairly surprising statement that the COSC certificate probably did not apply to this watch....! Yes, with the serial numbers on certificate and caseback matching... So, anyway, they agreed to take this up with BUK on Monday, but I get the feeling that there will be a rapid brush-off from BUK and they (the retailer) will accept it without question.

Author:	Roffensian [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
Your AD is an idiot. Breitling claim + / - 15 seconds a year for quartz COSC, but it's not really that simple. Because quartz accuracy is dependent on temperature the COSC standard for quartz isn't as simple as the -4 / +6 for mechanical. The exact standard is + / - 0.2 seconds per day at each of 8 and 38 celsius and + / - 0.07 seconds per day at 23 celsius.

Author:	Spartan [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
Tony, this is exactly what I don't want to read about, with my Bentley Le mans at the Breitling service center for a complete overhaul. I mean, if BUK is having problems.... I hope you sort things out!

Author:	br549 [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
Tony B wrote: They then made the fairly surprising statement that the COSC certificate probably did not apply to this watch....! Yes, with the serial numbers on certificate and caseback matching... Where can I get some of what your AD is smoking? I mean seriously, are these guys high on crack cocaine? I am shocked by this post. It's like some comedy skit with you being the butt of the joke. This is totally unaccepatable. I would call BUK, circumventing the AD, first to complain about the AD, and second to get my friggin COSC -15/+15 seconds per year watch fixed! And hopefully this time fixed correctly.

Author:	MartynJC (UK) [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
Roffensian wrote: Your AD is an idiot. Breitling claim + / - 15 seconds a year for quartz COSC, but it's not really that simple. Because quartz accuracy is dependent on temperature the COSC standard for quartz isn't as simple as the -4 / +6 for mechanical. The exact standard is + / - 0.2 seconds per day at each of 8 and 38 celsius and + / - 0.07 seconds per day at 23 celsius. I believe Breitling quote +-15sec/yr for their (current) SQ thermo-compensated quartz movements - the model discussed here a A6xxxx is non-SQ - so the variance may be greater than that stated on the Breitling site. It's one reason I went for a SQ B-1 when they first came out - my non-SQ version was gaining +1sec every 3days..

Author:	Roffensian [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
MartynJC (UK) wrote: Roffensian wrote: Your AD is an idiot. Breitling claim + / - 15 seconds a year for quartz COSC, but it's not really that simple. Because quartz accuracy is dependent on temperature the COSC standard for quartz isn't as simple as the -4 / +6 for mechanical. The exact standard is + / - 0.2 seconds per day at each of 8 and 38 celsius and + / - 0.07 seconds per day at 23 celsius. I believe Breitling quote +-15sec/yr for their (current) SQ thermo-compensated quartz movements - the model discussed here a A6xxxx is non-SQ - so the variance may be greater than that stated on the Breitling site. It's one reason I went for a SQ B-1 when they first came out - my non-SQ version was gaining +1sec every 3days.. You're right in that they claim it for SQ, but bottom line is that this watch is supposed to be COSC, and in real world that should mean + / - 15 seconds a year or very close.

Author:	Tony B [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
MartynJC (UK) wrote: Roffensian wrote: Your AD is an idiot. Breitling claim + / - 15 seconds a year for quartz COSC, but it's not really that simple. Because quartz accuracy is dependent on temperature the COSC standard for quartz isn't as simple as the -4 / +6 for mechanical. The exact standard is + / - 0.2 seconds per day at each of 8 and 38 celsius and + / - 0.07 seconds per day at 23 celsius. I believe Breitling quote +-15sec/yr for their (current) SQ thermo-compensated quartz movements - the model discussed here a A6xxxx is non-SQ - so the variance may be greater than that stated on the Breitling site. It's one reason I went for a SQ B-1 when they first came out - my non-SQ version was gaining +1sec every 3days.. Agreed - it is non-SQ, but it is the A68362 (which is supposed to be COSC compliant) rather than the A68062 (which is not). 0.2 seconds/day = 73 sec/year, and 0.07/day = 25 sec/year. These are COSC standards rather than Breitling claims. Mine is currently at 120 sec/year, compared with its original (pre-service 1, or 2) performance of better than 20 seconds/year. I need to find my spreadsheet log to give you the exact numbers (on an old PC somewhere).

Author:	MartynJC (UK) [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
Tony B wrote: MartynJC (UK) wrote: Roffensian wrote: Your AD is an idiot. Breitling claim + / - 15 seconds a year for quartz COSC, but it's not really that simple. Because quartz accuracy is dependent on temperature the COSC standard for quartz isn't as simple as the -4 / +6 for mechanical. The exact standard is + / - 0.2 seconds per day at each of 8 and 38 celsius and + / - 0.07 seconds per day at 23 celsius. I believe Breitling quote +-15sec/yr for their (current) SQ thermo-compensated quartz movements - the model discussed here a A6xxxx is non-SQ - so the variance may be greater than that stated on the Breitling site. It's one reason I went for a SQ B-1 when they first came out - my non-SQ version was gaining +1sec every 3days.. Agreed - it is non-SQ, but it is the A68362 (which is supposed to be COSC compliant) rather than the A68062 (which is not). 0.2 seconds/day = 73 sec/year, and 0.07/day = 25 sec/year. These are COSC standards rather than Breitling claims. Mine is currently at 120 sec/year, compared with its original (pre-service 1, or 2) performance of better than 20 seconds/year. I need to find my spreadsheet log to give you the exact numbers (on an old PC somewhere). Hi - it sure seems to have dropped in accuracy - good luck with getting it back to spec.. I am sad you are not getting much help from your AD..

Author:	Roffensian [ Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
Tony B wrote: Agreed - it is non-SQ, but it is the A68362 (which is supposed to be COSC compliant) rather than the A68062 (which is not). 0.2 seconds/day = 73 sec/year, and 0.07/day = 25 sec/year. These are COSC standards rather than Breitling claims. Mine is currently at 120 sec/year, compared with its original (pre-service 1, or 2) performance of better than 20 seconds/year. I need to find my spreadsheet log to give you the exact numbers (on an old PC somewhere). You can't really extrapolate out the daily error with quartz, especially non thermo compensated. These numbers are worst case at given temperatures, but variations will move from + to - and back again depending on the changes in temperature - even day / night cycles will have an impact. Bottom line, it should be more accurate than those numbers, not less.

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Author:	Tony B [ Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: B-1 accuracy pre/post service
Another update. AD has spoken with BUK today. There was talk of the COSC certificate being mistakenly supplied with this watch, to which I expressed some (= enormous) surprise. After another call to BUK the AD seems to have dropped that (surprising...) suggestion. BUK said that the tolerance is +/-0.3/day = +/-150 seconds/year.... I did not need a calculator to come to the conclusion that BUK are not good with arithmetic (correct answer = 109.5, so mine is already just outside that somewhat relaxed number after 11 months). I had to point the AD to the COSC website where the tolerances for quartz chronometers can be found. He had some difficulty in understanding the g-force tests and what impact they would have on accuracy (could someone here interpret, perhaps?). BUK have said that they could regulate the watch, but I do not want them to touch it (after previous multiple bad experiences) and want it to go back to BCH if this is to be done. As the factory is closed until end August I will now have a further month to monitor performance against known reliable references. Next episode in this unmissable drama will be 1 week from now when the helpful person at the AD returns from vacation!