The Breitling Watch Source Forums

I have seen a lot of threads on here asking or stating that the value of their Breitling would appreciate or deppreciate over time.....well...how can it appreciate? Every day I see on here people getting this deal and that deal and buying online and getting AD's to sell them at 30-40% off (I am talking about new watches). Yea, you might get a great deal at the time, but don't you understand that it devalues the brand? You can't have the cake and eat it too. I don't understand why some think that they should get a Breitling at dirt cheap, but then expect it to appreciate in value over retail later on. This is the reason why Rolex, Panerai, and Patek, to name a few, keep their value and appreciate sometimes, over time, because they do not allow high discounts. The brand controls their value and keeps an eye on AD's while trying their hardest to fight grey market. And this is always going to be that way, no matter what brand, if you are able to buy it cheap, it will be cheap when you are trying to sell. There are always exceptions to the rule, like the very limited models and of course the original models.

After all, you are buying a watch to wear and enjoy, not to make an investement, but I was just kinda wondering about the thought process of why you think something that's tried to be devalued on daily basis and so much, is expected to be appreciated?

A very fair point, the same thing happens in the car industry - discounts at initial purchase devalues the brand somewhat come trade in time. But we're already in that loop now, so we need to get discounts to minimise the loss. I doubt the trend will ever be broken now.

I guess the same could be said for used watches, albeit on a much smaller scale. I'm not sure how far into that 'loop' we are so maybe it could be recovered. I'm always amazed by the discounts offered in the states, and perhaps over there used prices aren't so strong, but here in the UK if its a popular model, prices seem to remain quite high. Most AD's over here will 'offer' no discount, but if asked will maybe give 5-10%. I can only talk about Breitling as thats all I look at.

I would never expect one of my watches to appreciate, not rare enough. But the frequent UK price hikes can help strengthen used prices. Example: Navitimers always sell for pretty good money on eBay

Navitimer World on leather: Chistmas '08 new price = £3375, Feb increase = £3860, June increase of 15% = £4440

So within 6 months its gone up a grand. That will surely add something to used values

This is an interesting topic. I agree with krlyuzh when it comes to discounts, but I also agree that it's going to be a difficult cycle to break. Breitling may try to squeeze retail prices closer to list, but they run the risk of subduing demand, and they seem to be in a phase of consciously seeking market growth. Maybe that will change as a larger percentage of their watches move to in house movements - we shall see.

In terms of the secondary market, I think that there is an element of ignorance there. The day that I bough my AS BS from an AD one sold on eBay for around $1,400 more than I paid, and that wasn't out of line with prices at the time. Now that was likely a temporary spike, and of course it is an LE, but eBay can be deceiving. Additionally, with all the 'Buy it Now or Best Offer' prices you only see the asking price, not the actual selling price.

I don't buy watches to sell, so I don't really consider the current value as much - it's just a paper number. I do have some pieces that are worth more than I paid, sometimes because the market has moved - generally pre bankruptcy pieces, and sometimes because I got a very good deal - my DB Cosmonaute for example.

What I do know is that I am a watch nut, I buy things that appeal to me for their horological worth, but I am also sensitive of getting 'value', especially if it's something that isn't a practical daily wearer - like the pocket watch that I posted a few weeks ago. In that case the inherent value in the piece was a factor because I can't strap it to my wrist and look at it on a daily basis. However, even there it's a case for me of knowing that I won't lose money if I am ever in a position of having to sell, rather than looking to make money.

I have never bought a watch simply because I think it will appreciate in value, and if I did, it certainly wouldn't be a Breitling - of any description.

I completely agree that massive discounting is bad for the brand. Sure we all like to feel we are getting a bit of a bargain and it's long been a source of irritation for me that there apparently isn't a global Breitling standard on discounts. e.g. USA - 30%, UK - 10% (if you're lucky), but on the other hand I totally and utterly agree that massive discounts ultimately "dumb down" the brand and devalue it. The more accessible a thing is, the less exclusive it becomes, and the less it is ultimately worth. Personally I hated it when I read a thread on here that Breitlings were available at Costco. I'm not sure if that was my snobbery, or a feeling that the brand is suffering and being devalued : probably a bit of both.

In terms of expecting a Breitling to appreciate, well anyone who thinks that is deluding themselves. Even brands like Rolex and Panerai that have been known to sell for more than the RRP only tend to do so when supply is extremely limited, and as Roff said, that period in any model's life is generally very transient. For example, when I bought my now long sold Rolex Submariner LV, there was a huge demand for it simply because of limited supply. I bought it for list from my AD, and at that point I could've sold it on for around a thousand pounds more than RRP. However, over time it appeared that supply caught up to such an extent that when I can to sell it I was told by a watch dealer friend of mine that I might be better off swapping out the green bezel for a black one as they were more in demand! I eventually sold it on for around £600 less than list.

If Breitling allow (or rather don't do anything to actively stop) watches to be sold on the grey market for peanuts at places like Costco, there is no way on earth that they're ever going to appreciate in value.

Personally I don't like Breitling's recent direction, both in terms of design and the target market they are going after. I'd like to see them working towards more exclusivity rather than a "stack 'em high, allow 'em to be discounted cheap" attitude. But I guess market share is the main current driver....... but that may come at the expense of brand exclusivity and class.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

I'm curious- how much of a discount did Costco offer? From what I've researched, most grey market Breitlings are at the most 35% off retail. I don't consider $3000 or whatever "peanuts". I feel there is nothing wrong with selling Breitlings at Costco. The reason I ask is I have been doing a lot of research in my persuit of the watch I want. I decided to go through an AD only because I got a very fair price. It was important for me to get the Breitling waranty and all the benefits you get from an AD.

BTW- New watch comming sooner than expected. I'll keep you posted

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SA Blue Dial Silver Subs Pro 2

OK, so when I said "peanuts" I obviously meant relatively speaking and compared to full RRP.

I can't recall the exact discount someone reported, but if you do a search on "Costo" on here, I guess the thread will pop up.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

I'm curious as well. What do you buy or wish to buy Breitling for? Is it the style, Is it the technical part of it, or the exclusivity?

To me, its all of the above and when I go in Costco and see a Breitling in there, even though they are not an AD and most serial number track back to Asian markets, it makes me feel....well....not so special anymore. I like the fact that there is only 1 Breitling AD in town vs 5 Rolex, 10 TAG, and few Omega; I like the fact that there are 50 Rolex to 1 Breitling when you look around you at people's wrists(not literally). At least it used to be that way. This whole grey market deal, the Costco treasure hunt, and AD's going out of business or simply do not care to lose an account with Breitling is KILLING the value of the brand, yet as you have expressed, we are OK with that. I do not know what type of work you do, but let's say you own a dealership and find the same Range Rovers being sold at a KIA dealership for about half the price, or those Lacoste shirts you sell at your boutique are being sold across the street at flea market. What does that do to each of those brands? It becomes inexclusive, easy to get, and therefore losing what it stands for.

The more demand there is for grey market, the more the brand will lose it's value, and only we can "fix" that. I always stick to the saying: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is," even if its in the looong run. That, of course, would be the perfect world.

Very intresting topic!
This is not in anyway something to fault Breitling. It´s a new marketing climate where every company tries to cope.

In the last six or so years the market has changed dramatically. Mostly because of the internet. It has given us a lot of good and alot of bad too. Another factor for Europe is the EU that has made it illegal for manufacturers and importers to influence the retail price (that´s why now it´s "suggested retail price". Which actually translates that the buyer can and should suggest a lower price. Doesn´t it?). It brakes down monopoly and frees all dealers to sell any product for their chosen retail price.

Sounds fair and we all benefit. Right? Wrong! Thanks to the internet we actually loose. Now we´ve been taught to hunt for the bargain. We go after the price rather then the product and couldn´t care less for the service. So now the AD:s are forced to react to not loose business and try match the prices on the net, which are many times one offs or even tools to scam people (Buy now get nothing later). In the long run this destroys the market. We see it now in Finland. All the home apliance stores are in trouble and close to bankruptcy. The competition for the customers got too bloody and in the end nobody made money. So now you get no service as there are less sales people and there is less dealer shops to choose from. The customer is the one who looses in the end and why? For that extra 5-10%.

We even here feed the fire. (Not all, but some) people brag about the discounts of 30-40%. Come on... Some are true sure, but many excaggerated. Everyone wants to say "I got the best deal". All of those big discounts has come in some abnormal circumstances. Then everybody else thinks they got ripped off. In a normal situation anything between 10-25% should be ok. If I´ve chosen a piece I like I´de buy it with no discount if nobody offered one.

I always try to find a good deal too. I feel out the field and negotiate the "second" best price. It´s when I feel I got a decent deal and the seller feels the same. That way I always feel as a valued customer and get excellent service. I never want to get "the best price" by squeezing the last drop and then feel unwelcome. I always vote with my feet, I buy from official sources and stay away from what I think represents wrong values.

To say Rolex or Panerai don´t discount is bull. Since it´s illegal to let the distributor regulate prices. It´s solely the dealers discretion how they want to handle it. Two weeks ago I got an offer on a Panerai without asking. Just wanted to see it and the AD calculated an intresting figure. Too bad Panerais don´t speak to me.

I don´t expect any of this to change as long as the law remains the same. I buy my watches to keep and wear so the used price has only a marginal intrest for me. I love watches just the same, but it´s still nice to know they keep quite good value anyway.

The Breitlings in Costco sell for more than other gray market dealers, and more than some of us have been able to get from ADs.

I personally dont mind seeing them there (besides the fact that I LOVE Costco). Plus, theyve been in good company. Ive seen Breitling, IWC, Cartier, Chopard, Omega, and others.

As for discounts...I dont think its nearly as big of a deal as some of us make it out to be. Very few buyers away from this forum and others like it are getting 30% off. The majority walk into local shops and get a modest discount and leave it at that.

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-RJ

Well just to add some more fuel to the fire.......

I do get 40% off - and I don't care if anyone believes that ot not - all the time I can, I will.

BUT.......

I think that Breitling can absolutely control it if they want. In recent years Breitling has consciously gone 'down market'. I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, and if anyone is going to get upset by this post I apologise, but it's true. The range that has exapnded the most is the Aeromarine range that is targeted at first time Breitling owners at the value end of the market and a largely younger audience. At the higher end of the market the focus has been on 'bling' and the almost insatiable pride of having the brand named in I don't know how many rap songs.

Breitling has made a very, very definite statement that they care about market share - and that's fine. However that means that they are competing a lot more with Tag and Omega than with Zenith, IWC, JLC, etc. Even with the new B01, the design is 'non traditional', doubtless in an attempt to expand the market further.

I honestly don't think that Breitling's focus is on being an 'exclusive' brand, I think they have made the determination that they are better off financially trying to sell a larger number of smaller margin pieces, and heavy discuounting is part of that perceived value.

I personally wish that Breitling had gone in a different direction, but that's selfish on my part - many of the people on here wouldn't be Breitling owners if they had.

I also hope that this is a relatively short term strategy to grow the brand into a household name so that they can then consciously take the brand upmarket again as in house movements begin to dominate.

I don't mean this as a slight to owners of models in the Aeromarine range - I have bought some myself, but let's be clear about what is going on - Breitling is not trying to build exclusivity.

Well said Roff.

I understand some people don't want to see their beloved Breitlings in stores like Costco. I respect the sanctity of purchasing a high end watch through an exclusive jeweler. But, as Roff has pointed out, there is nothing stopping Breiting from changing it's marketing strategy. They know damn well what they are selling and to who.

I have made a personal choice to stick with an AD, but I would never pass judgement on someone who brought a Breitling on the grey market.

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SA Blue Dial Silver Subs Pro 2

Having built a nice collection of B's I can tell you that there is not a single new Breitiling you can buy that will go up in value in the short term and quite possibly long term. From the Colt to the Bentley Tourbillon, I just can't see it.

I have found that the only way for the watch to hold value is to buy it when it's already devalued and it's a limited piece.

Breitling used to make cool limited pieces but they just don't anymore. There idea of limited edition is 3-5 thousand pieces. That's not limited. Less than a thousand is limited and it really starts getting special when you get under 250 pieces. And to me the very best ones are numbered on the dial and are less than 100 in total. And there has to be something speical about the watch, you can't just stamp a number on the back.

If you look at the Chronologs from 7-10 years ago they had lots of custom dials with different flight teams and such.

For example:
This is one of my favorites. It's fairly limited, not too expensive and looks fantastic especially on the Rouleaux. If you can find a good used one for under 2K your doing good IMHO. There is nothing that they sell like this now.


IMHO they need to concentrate on very specialized dials and case aesthetics in very limited numbers to appeal to the collectors. Make a hundred of a special piece and make a hundred variations. You can do this and still make the mass produced lines as well.

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This is a Rochefoucauld, the thinnest water-resistant watch in the world. Singularly unique, sculptured in design,hand-crafted in Switzerland.
In Philadelphia it's worth Fifty bucks.

Roff, you've basically said overtly what I was getting at in the last line of my post when I said, "Personally I don't like Breitling's recent direction, both in terms of design and the target market they are going after. I'd like to see them working towards more exclusivity rather than a "stack 'em high, allow 'em to be discounted cheap" attitude. But I guess market share is the main current driver....... but that may come at the expense of brand exclusivity and class."

I've said it before, but Breitling are losing me a little at the moment with their direction, which is why I can't see myself buying another Breitling for a while. I'm happy with the 5 I have, but there are currently a number of other brands are doing things that appeal to me far more, so that's where my personal focus lies.

My desire to see Breitling move "up-market" is purely a personal one as I've been a long-time lover of the brand, but as a company they clearly have to do what is best for their shareholders, and not what a few guys on a watch forum would like! Unfortunately!

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Driver8

Site Moderator

Roff I think I said: some do? I´d put you in that category for sure... And some may agree with me, that you getting that discount goes under the category: abnormal circumstances!

...But doesn´t that devaluate the brand. If people wouldn´t be so quick to tell their discounts the Brand would be better of, any brand. Right? Of course it´s nice to get discounts. The thing is, your respected and looked up to here. When you say what you get. People want the same and start to think that´s the norm. Some will say they get the same even if it wouldn´t be so. Just to say I get the same as Roff or someone else. You can say you don´t care, but then why would you post it here if you really don´t.

I personally like to keep my relationship with my AD (of any category) between me and them. I feel It´s an unwriten agreement that if they give me a good price and service I don´t go telling others but will recommend them as a good dealer. This is just my view and I might be alone with it? Our views here differ and that just makes interesting dialog. Would be boring if everyone would see things the same way.



True maybe about Omega and personally I don´t see that as a bad thing. But I completaly disagree competing with Tags??? If Tags prices end where Breitlings begin, I really don´t see that comparison.



Like I said earlier: Atleast in Europe that´s illegal. So by law, they can´t! There´s even been a presedent and the company has lost.

...But one thing I do agree with you is that Breitling is not after exclusivity. But as long as the brand image is still high and products good, I don´t care. Think MB, BMW, Rolex, Omega, Bose, Boss, etc...

Just my views on the matter.

A few points......

Does 40% off devalue the brand - sure, but I'm just not a good enough person to pay more than I have to to protect the brand name - sorry.

If you think I post it because I care then you don't know me very well. I keep a lot of things to myself - including my collection (presumably if I cared about it then I would post it), but I feel that it helps others to get discounts. I have a lot of requests from Canadian members for introductions to my AD, and I'm happy to oblige - I always tell them two things - 1) i's up to them to negotiate their own discount, and 2) they can likely expect up to 35% depending on model - my 40% has come through a number of acquisitions and a first time buyer isn't going to get it.

Could I choose not to do that - sure, but I am a moderator on here and I feel that it's a 'nice' thing to do for members - I don't feel that it's my job to protect Breitling's reputation. If Breitling want to contact me and offer me a job then I would seriously consider it, and I may feel very differently at that point, but right now the cash is very much flowing in the other direction!

I'm not comparing Breitling watches to Tags, I am suggesting that Breitling is actively going after potential Tag customers - effectively saying - look how much more you can get for just a few hundred more bucks.

As far as controlling the pricing being illegal - rubbish. Virtually all of the high end brands do it to protect their reputation. I'm not suggesting that you get away from discounts entirely, but you have an AD contract that makes it clear that anyone discounting more than (say) 10% is in breach of contract and can be thrown out. Then you throw some of them out.

You can also charge the distributors a higher percentage of MSRP, thereby increasing the amount of cash actually going to Breitling and forcing them to charge the ADs a higher number and reducing the ability of the delaers to discount.

There is only one reason (in my opinion) that Breitling haven't done it, and that's because they don't mind it at this point. They did clamp down on some of the ADs in the US who were giving excessive discounts last year, but they still turn a blind eye to anything up to around 30%.

And of course what they will never admit is that they actually don't mind ADs having lower prices than the grey market dealers, because it might just (eventually) put the grey market guys out of business.

We all know that Breitling lurks on here and they know that we freely discuss discounts and name dealers - but there aren't any consequences!