The Breitling Watch Source Forums

With the new year upon us, those of us with the fiscally unhealthy addiction showcased here have thoughts that turn to a small town in Switzerland. This post is to those of you with some connections in the biz (Roff, D8 etc...) Any word on Basel unveilings from Breitling? PLEASE tell me they are going to put the B01 in something without the 2001 Space Oddessy bezel. A B01 Navi maybe??? Come on guys. What are the bushes rattling about?

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Chronomat, Steel/Gold, MOP Dial, 2-tone band (2008)
Super Avenger Black Baton Dial (2009)
Bentley B04 GMT Silver Dial (2013)
Avenger Blacksteel Baton Dial (2014)

Hey Boney - I don't have quite the same number of contacts as Mr Roff, but the ones I do have either don't know anything themselves yet, or they are keeping very tight lipped. As a result I have absolutely zero insight into what's up and coming.

Like you I'm desperately hoping for a Navi World sized Navitimer with a B01 ticking away inside, but I've a feeling we're gonna be disappointed.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

I'm in a tough spot right now - people in Switzerland are in shut down mode - prepping for Basel and understrict instructions not to say anything, and people elsewhere generally don't know yet.

I have heard a few rumours, and I can read in to questions that haven't been answered, but largely speculation on my part.....

Chronomat B01 sales have disappointed, and reaction to the design has also been worse than expected, so I believe that some of the early Basel 2010 plans were changed as a result - personally I think that's a good thing because it means that Breitling is listening.

I can't get a solid handle on internal production, but I suspect that at least some of the internal resources are working on taking ETA / Valjoux designs more in house, and as a result the number of B01s produced may be impacted, which in turn may mean that we see no more B01 models until next year (or at least later in 2010). There also seems to be a reluctance to drop a B01 into an existing model because 1) if it's available with in house and 3rd party movements then Joe Public won't pay a premium and 2) if it replaces 3rd party then sales will likely be damaged by the highe price - and market share is still important.

Reading between the lines I think that this is causing some problems for them on an in house Navi - coming up with something distinctly different to house the B01 while sticking to the 3 subdial layout and being able to position it so as not to damage existing sales - especially as the Navitimer range is becoming more of an enthusiasts watch.

Not getting anything about an in house Bentley, but am hearing some noises about having to revitalise the Bentley range after some commercial mistakes in recent years (Flying B, Mark VI). That said, I do believe that there is a super limited grand complication in the works (though likely not in 2010), and I have to believe that would be Bentley branded.

I haven't heard anything about super quartz moving in house, but they do appear very committed to it - it's around 20% of sales, and expect to see continued evolution of those watches if not a completely new watch in the professional or Aeromarine ranges.

I keep hearing about product rationalisation, but not sure where that would happen - they have consciously expanded Aeromarine, maybe they consider rebranding the Skyland as the Avenger as some kind of rationalisation, but that's weak. I do think that the Aeromarine range is starting to lose some focus, maybe it get's split, but they are getting to the point where they can no longer expand the range without making it a mess.

Windrider range is likely stable this year, maybe the Starliner get's overhauled, but I think we are a year or two away from major changes around Cockpit / Chrono-Cockpit. I keep hearing noises around rider tabs, but not sure where that goes without morphing into Aeromarine, unless the sloped bezel we got with the B01 becomes the norm (not the font) - I know that Breitling are pleased with that aspect.

I also think that we get a fairly stable year in Navitimers after some fairly dramatic cosmetic changes last year.

So it's tough to see where new models come in, other than as replacements, so we may see new colour combos, some refreshed dials, etc.

All that said, I do get the feeling that I am not getting as much information as previously - maybe we are becoming a little too high profile here!

Hmmmm, that's a real shame they're pleased with the sloping bezel. I was hoping that'd be consigned to the bin of "bad design ideas" along with the font, because it generally means that rider tabs could be a thing of the past. Yes I know I am a traditionalist, but for me there are certain parts of the Breitling's DNA which need to stay as it is or just evolve slightly, not be binned completely. But I also understand the corporate pressure to do something new...... not that the lack of changing anything has ever harmed Rolex at all!

You put forward a good few arguments why we won't be seeing any new B01 equiped watches, Roff, (which is the rumour that I've heard too) although I still think there would be room in the range for a 46mm tricompax Navi with the B01 inside as there isn't anything like it in the range at the moment. Basically it'd be the look of the standard Navi in a bigger case with an in-house movement. But hey, I'm not in charge of R&D so what do I know!

I also agree that the Navi is becoming an enthusiasts watch, but then the B01 is an enthusiasts movement IMO. Joe Public probably won't care less if a movement is in-house or not : all they see is the sticker price, and as we know, the B01 commands a hefty premium. Personally I'd have thought a B01 Navi would be the absolute logical choice. But again, what do I know!

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Driver8

Site Moderator

Well if left hand crowns are abandoned as a 40th anniversary present then 26 year old rider tabs can hardly be considered safe!

I agree with you on the B01 larger Navitimer, but suspect that thinking is that there wouldn't be enough sales to justify it - remember we are talking about a company with 'only' 280 - 300,000 watches sold each year, and if you create a high end watch in a niche part of your brand then you may only end up with 4,000 sales a year after 2 -3 years which may not justify the expense.

Chronomat B01 is seen as different because it was new packaging for the movement, not just a new movement. Now that packaging didn't work as well as expected, but the argument makes sense - and I don't think any of us want to see distinctly new packaging for a Navitimer! The price in and of itself isn't as big a problem for them as long as it's a distinctly different product for the price - B01 is very different from regular Chronomat so price is explainable (if not justifiable). 46mm Navi may not be so easy to justify.

I guess by making some any great looking watches over recent years, Breitling have made something of a rod for their own back now if they are trying to make something new all the time for the B01!

Well, I can play a waiting game for a nice B01 Navi to turn up. And if one never does?..... well, I guess I just won't buy another Breitling. There's plenty of other great makes out there who are producing stuff that I really like.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

I'll try to keep it short, not sure I'll succeed.

So Cato the Elder must have been right on some points: repetitively say what you feel you are absolutely right about:

I understand and do not want to speak against the thing, that lots of our Forum-mates need larger and larger watches, I myself also think that the SA, the Navi World, the Skyland, the SOHC are beautiful watches. But I do not think I'd ever wear them because they are out of my taste for things for myself and a thin-to-normal wrist of mine (6.75") is a prohibitive size in my eyes.

So:

I think that Breitling, manufacturer of many wonderful watches should ALSO think of us normal size or conservative style watch wearers and collectors.

I'm the happy and proud owner of 4 Lings, sizes between 39 and 42 mm and my daily wearer is the Chrono Cockpit (on Pilot) which is a very, very harmonic piece for me, simply don't feel having it on my wrist and matches my style of clothing. The blue-dialled CSO (my week-end and holiday wearer) is on the upper limit regarding diameter, but I find sometimes the 17.5 (!) mm height too much. The beautiful off-white dial Grand Premier is my suit and evening occasions (opera, theater, etc.) wearer on a leather strap.
The blue Aviastar is a rare guest on my wrist - mineral crystal and 30 m wr are against regular weekday usage - I simply love how the Aviastar looks and wear it sometimes.

So I think that I can wear anything between 36 and 43 mm (I loved to wear my late Tudor Oyster Prince Date+Day which is the same diameter and style than the Datejust).

I'd be happy to buy further Lings (+ hope I'll find a nice black dialled used Grand Premier some time). No real further models for me in the current collection, though I love the style of many.

I think that every - or almost every - model using the 7750 should also be offered as a day-date version too (Chronomats, Chrono Cockpit, SOHC). Some people do not work, some are on holidays, some - like me - are working on a different schedule every weekday so this is a valuable feature and the 7750 has this feature (if not hidden by the dial) and BTW makes the dial a bit more harmonic too.

I think that the important models should all be offered as dark-only dials too (all black, all blue, all grey or black-eye blue), because now the reading-at-a-glance of my CSO and CC are impaired by the strongly contrasting dials (blue with silver sub-dials). The new fashion of the black-and-blue (blackeye blue) dials is absolutely according to my personal preference, I hope the CSO will also come with blackeye blue dial, hopefully in 2010. For a better visibility any light dial (white, off-white, silver, cream) should be made with blued hands and hour markings too - here the matching Fortis B-42-s are to be overtaken. Dark dials should use at least white small chrono-hands instead of silver. At the age of 49 with otherwise good eyes I have problems to read e. g. the silver hands and chrono counters of the CSO above the silver sub-dials. The 3 small hands of my CC were replaced by blued hands - way better since then.

I think that many love the 0-60 count-up lunette so every turning lunette should have (at least as an option) this feature, not only the count-down lunette.

I think that some - repeatedly used - dial gags are not really popular, because not too useful. Now I mean 3 different things:

0-100 decimal scale on the rehaut of many models.
Windrose on turning lunettes.
13-24 hour digits on some models (e. g. SO).

These 3 should be used a bit more rarely, or at least watches without these should also be offered as an option.

I'd be very much interested (that is I'll buy them if they happen to appear) in a few models, as follows:

- Chronomat B01 blackeye blue dial, but:

if possible:

40-42 mm, as written above.

Without an oblique date window, that is: either perpendicular digits between 4 and 5, thinking of people wearing their watches on the right wrist, or date window placed to 6 o'clock, like on some of the previous Seamaster Chronos or some newer Tudor chronos. Or Big Date at 12.

With a weekday feature, best at 6, shown by a hand, common axis with the hour counter, or a simple full calendar module, using day and month windows at 12 and date hand from the center - like the Venus 191 or Valjoux 72C driven original Datoras or the 7751 driven new Datoras. Rehaut tachy scale, horizontal part date digits, decimal scale to be forgotten. Classic dial in modern case - clearly winner.

With the older fonts on the lunette. Rider tabs using the new design w/o the pulli-killers but having edges showing to the center and not parallel like the 2009 B01. Sloping lunette can be kept.

The B01 too has its way up with some features other high-end manufacturers use: Breguet spring, bridge for the balance, direct adjusting on the balance wheel by screws, maybe a Fly-back feature (pilot's watches!!!). These could make a wonderful movement even more refined, with an even better place among the chrono movements of Patek, Rolex, AP, Lange, JLC and a few others. I do not think these would cost disproportionately too much, but would gain a lot on the other side.

- SOHC in a "normal" size, say 40-42 mm and day-date 7750. A pilot-style bracelet option would be nice.

-Chrono Cockpit (39mm!), either with the 7750 or the B01 but with day-date feature and screw-down pushers.

Three more comments on the bracelets:

The bracelet design of the Pro I. and the Fighter should not have been dropped completely: they offer a much more 3-dimensional feeling, against the 2-dimensional feeling of the Navi-Pilot-ProII. line, which is good in case of thick watches, like my CSO (I have for my CSO the ProI., the ProII., the Ocean Classic, the Ocean Racer, a blue shark and a NATO - and I use practically only the ProI.)

The Navi-Pilot-ProII. line (which - as a design - is one of the nicest bracelets out there) should have, at least as an option:
1. a double pusher folding clasp, like that of the Ocan Racer
2. divers extension links: I really cannot understand producing bracelets for watches between 100 and 3000.... m wr without a divers extension.... why? If there would be an easy-changing system (like on certain Cartier, the IWC AT, or the newest Panerai) I'd more-or-less understand, but without this??? I'm a bracelet guy and I'm more than hurt that the extension piece is not an option now - they even stopped it on the Aeromarine line, where the ProI. used to have this feature. This is the other point why I use the ProI. on my CSO. I do not regularly dive but regularly go for XC-skiing, nordic-walking or simply walking in gloves in wintertime and want to wear my waterproof watches on the outside. (The Ocean Classic would of course gain too by this new folding clasp mechanism, a Ling fanatic has already applied the OR clasp on the OC bracelet (w/o divers link of course), there is a long post w/scans on the Watchlounge Ling Forum):

http://www.watchlounge.com/wbb3/wl/watc ... ost1264357

Sorry guys for I could not keep my post short and excuse me those who got tired reading all my thoughts. I hope competent persons from Breitling also read such posts and if they agree on some points then these can go into production some time. If not, then I'm very, very happy with my 4 Lings (the 5th, pre-loved from year 1999 to join some day) and have plenty of time to wait "my turn".

Looking forward to Basel 2010, with best regards from your friend in Budapest:

Robertus

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Chronomat 41 BEB, Steelfish Chrono BEB, 2x Grand Premier, Chrono Cockpit 39 mm, Aerospace Avantage 79362
IWC 3706, 3705, 376706, 371928
Sinn 103 plexy
For sale: Sinn 356 II, Porsche Design Titan Chrono Valjoux
Wanted: Breitling Blackbird 13353 on bracelet

Totally agree with you. At the end of the day I think we'd all like to see Breitling making a range of watches in which each and every one of us can find something that we love. However I'm pretty sure Breitling will make whatever want, but if someone from Breitling R&D came up to me and said, "Would you like a 46mm watch or a 39mm watch?", I'd have to say 46mm because that's my personal preference. But no matter what any of us say - us fans of larger watches, or you fans of smaller watches - I'm pretty sure that Breitling will not be swayed by popular opinion. Hopefully whatever crops up at Baselworld 2010 will please one or ideally both groups of people.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

Anything regarding moving part of the aeromarine range over to the "new style" GMT+ bezel?

I just hope that Breitling sees the lackluster sales of the B01 and wide variety of fans that dont like the Buck Rogers lettering on the bezel and offer the B01 with a normal Chronomat type bezel. If they do, I will most likely be getting one. Personally I like almost eveything about the B01 except for that bezel.

I also think that they should incorporate the B01 movement into the Navi line immediately, but keep the cost relatively the same... for now. Rolex did the same thing in the Daytona, going from a Zenith movement to thier own and I dont think it hurt their sales. Of course it would be nice to see a distinguishing feature to tell the old Navi's from ones with an in house. I Just dont think it would e wise to move the Navi line to a totally redesigned watch, just because the movement has changed. The Navi design is just to iconic of the Breitling brand.

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Breitling Steelfish(black)
Breitling Steelfish(silver)
Panerai PAM 312
Bell & Ross BR03-92 Phantom
Steinhart BreitlingSource LE #5/15

I've heard nothing at all - sorry.



I can't see the Chronomat B01 just getting a bezel change - at least not yet. That would be seen by too many as an admission of failure. A font change after 2 or 3 years as part of a 'refresh' is most likely I think.

The Navi design is exactly the problem with an in house model - making the design sufficeintly different to attract new buyers without deviating from the classic Navitimer look. That's a little bit of a problem with the Navitimer range anyway - beyond the obvious differences in function and size the World / Cosmonaute / Navitimer are visually very similar. How do you add something to that mix that is more than just a dial variation? Montbrillant is always an option, but same basic problem exists there.

In terms of price, I think that you will inevitably be a step up - Breitling want to make a distinction between ETA / Valjoux and in house - a little different situation than Rolex where they already had an in house movement with Zenith - it just wasn't their house.

May I just say, I am simply awed by the thoughts & knowledge presented here... Makes me realize in watches (& Breitlings) my knowledge & experience is less than infantile -- it's not even embryonic...

But I do still have great anticipation for any new Breitling models for Basel 2010!!

On the B01, I think it's very interesting that while the response by existing Breitling owners have been luke-warm, many Rolex & other brand owners who before have never considered Lings, actually LOVE the B01! Perhaps this was the justification of the design -- to attract a whole new class of Breitling owners?

AHH the classic big watch vs sub 44 mm watch debate. i understand how lots of the old school guys don tlike th ebig 45mm+ watches, i can see and apreciate your view, but that is why i LOVE breitlings, there are TON of other BIG watches out there, but they look like a damn alarm clock on your wrist. the breitling can be big and classy and stylish at the saem time. fact is i am like a damn gorilla, 6'6 300 lb with a 8inch plus wrist. i NEED a big watch like my super avengeers. and i look foreward to having more than 6 models to chose from in the line up, i for one say bring on the big ones! how many navitimer variations do we need?

dont get me wrong, if i had "normal" arms i would have about 12 breitlings sub 48mm, but for now, i hope i get some new choices to choose from

I'd keep the classic size of 41.5 mm, simply use the date window shape of the 7740 driven Navi, apply the "older" logo (see link:)

http://www.antiquewatches.de/breitling-2350.html

and use black subdials on a black dial (like on the Navi World). Maybe produce a mesh bracelet with ends fitting to the case and that's it. Everyone "insider" would recognize it in the very first second.

Sorry no photoshop knowledge here.

Best Robertus

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Chronomat 41 BEB, Steelfish Chrono BEB, 2x Grand Premier, Chrono Cockpit 39 mm, Aerospace Avantage 79362
IWC 3706, 3705, 376706, 371928
Sinn 103 plexy
For sale: Sinn 356 II, Porsche Design Titan Chrono Valjoux
Wanted: Breitling Blackbird 13353 on bracelet

That's undoubtedly true - in fact Tudor have a new piece with virtually identical bezel font.

Breitling have been focused on market share for the last decade, and the B01 is clearly positioned to attract new people to the brand and build that base further - let's never forget that this is a business and the larger the customer base the larger the potential for future sales. We can't really complain about that - it's what finances R&D after all.

However, the actual sales have been below expectations, and that is what has caused some rethinking. We also have to recognise that places like this have an influence. While the watch may be designed to attract new people, some people will google the watch if they are considering it, and some of those people will be swayed by comments that are less than complimentary. Not everyone (thank goodness), but let's not doubt that Breitling would be a lot happier with Breitling forums where the consensus opinion is hugely positive.