The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Breitling Watch Information Forums, Navitimer, Chronomat
It is currently Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:42 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Navitimer slide rule
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:10 am 
Offline
Breitling Fanatic
Breitling Fanatic

Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:21 am
Posts: 324
Location: UK
I thought I'd do a hunt around and see what evidence I could find for the different iterations of the Navitimer slide rule,
and in particular when they might have brought in the red markers.

I posted a 1964 dated Navitimer and it was suggested that by then Breitling had adopted the red marked slide rule, a rough change over of 1962 was suggested,
however from what I can see this is not necessarily the case and plain dials/slide rules might have been produced much
later. I thought it would be fun to open it up for discussion and see what info could be gathered.

I started by looking at the 1969 catalogue, whch shows the two red sliderule/dial variations that I've come across.

Attachment:
NavitimerCloseUp.jpg


There are two obvious differences in the later slide rulers, the easiest place to spot it is on the 10 on the slide rule,
in one version there is a small triangular arrow and in the other there is a square box around the ten. Navitimer's
used both.

I then had a look at some advertising that Breitling used in 1967 and which I posted earlier.

Attachment:
1967Mag_Navitimer.jpg


There is no arrow or square at the 10 mark on the sliderule, which says to me this is a plain non-red slide rule.
So at least as late as 67 Breitling were advertising this version.

Then I looked at a well established post of someone who bought a Navitimer in 1967 and has personally owned and serviced it throughout it's life.

http://pippick.com/reviews/NavitimerReviewPt1.htm

Since Les owned the Navitimer from when it was bought he knows its full service history. While searching my harddrive I found an old post by him on
the original Watchuseek Breitling forum.

Attachment:
Watchuseekdiscussion.jpg


I also had a look at Breitling's Vintage collection on Timezone.

http://people.timezone.com/breitling/bf ... ction.html

They have one classic Navi, described as follows:

Item #14, Navitimer, ref. #806, circa 1964, manual wind Venus 178, steel, no red on slide rule, original Navitimer logo

Attachment:
VintageBreitlingNavi.jpg


Also Kurt's Navitimer article has a 1966 Navi complete with box and papers which he says is unused and he purchased
it from the original owner's widow. It shows a plain slide rule.

http://people.timezone.com/breitling/bf ... timer.html

Certainly to my mind it seems that Breitling continued to produce different variants of the dials and slide rules through the Sixties.
My supposition, and this is just my personal guess, I would imagine that the dial and sliderule would be matched, if it is a plain dial
it should be a plain sliderule, if it has a square on the ten on the dial it should have a square on the 10 on the sliderule,
if it has an arrowhead on the dial it should match the sliderule.

Weirdly I found very few catalogues or adverts for the white 806, if anyone has some they can post it would be very interesting.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navitimer slide rule
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:28 am 
Offline
Contributing Moderator
Contributing Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:09 am
Posts: 33671
Location: Ontario, Canada
I am teaching this week so don't have time to do a full analysis, this is a very comprehensive summary - http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=25057

Your photo from a 67 is a black and white ad, and to me the 10 looks different to the other numerals - which suggests red to me.

The reason why the switch over is a grey area is that there was no consistency to what was grabbed from the parts bin, so it's possible that there were one or two outliers, but my experience matches the WUS article.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navitimer slide rule
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:38 am 
Offline
Breitling Fanatic
Breitling Fanatic

Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:21 am
Posts: 324
Location: UK
Hi Roffensian,

first let me say I'm a big fan of the site and I think your moderation is fantastic, always
fair and knowledgeable. It's one of the reasons I've started posting here.

Having been focused on collecting Vintage Breitling's for the last eight years, I've been lucky
to handle quite a few rare examples and occasionaly put one into my own collection.

Weirdly Navitimer's have never been my main focus, so my knowledge of them is
patchier than other areas and I've enjoyed reading your posts about them.
That's why I was so fascinated to look at this question of dials and
changes. I think there is still much information to be shared and debated.

As far as I've seen there are three dial variations to do with the red marking's around the dial
and slide ruler. Not looking at logo, or sub-dial size.

Attachment:
n19672.jpg


This is the non red dial, the 10 on the slide rule has no other markers. I have not found an example in
which the ten is in red without there being an arrowhead or box with it.

Attachment:
tl8062.jpg


The second example has an arrowhead on the ten, matching with the ten on the dial.

Attachment:
8061.jpg


The third has a box in red corresponding to a box on the ten.

I hope it's OK but for speed I borrowed these pictures from http://www.navitimer.net

I've not found any other variations on the slide rules outside of these three, which would lead me to believe the 1967 advert has to be black.

I can believe that Breitling might have swapped slide rules during service, but I'm not sure that they
would have been so slap-dash with their signature watch not to send them out of the factory with some sort of consistency,
but that is just my conjecture.

There is no question that Breitling changed the logo's on their dials and many other features, they produced custom marked dials, the LIP and Iraqi ones for example.

I think the Watchuseek article is excellent, but it will be the first to admit there's a lot still to be discovered. As it says:

"Other variations ocurred in the red-coloured printing on the dial and outer slide rule. Some watches had no red at all and those that did have some red markings varied. Ref 806's are seen today that have red only on the inner dial or only on the outer dial; again, it is not known if they were originally like this or whether a non-matching inner or outer dial has been fitted later."


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navitimer slide rule
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:54 pm 
Offline
Breitling Enthusiast
Breitling Enthusiast

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:13 pm
Posts: 19
Yaffle

Interesting post - I also had my Breitling for my 21st birthday in 1965 - wasn't a Navitimer but bog standard Chrono similar to the one on left hand pic of your writeup but with only two dials - I also got mine from Watch's of Switzerland in New St Birmingham for £21 - unfortunately I wore mine for 10yrs non stop at work and play and stopped wearing it when girlfriend now wife bought me an automatic Seiko - earlier this year I had it cleaned and it works a treat except stop watch stops after a short time but I had only ever used that function once at Isle of Man TT races in June 1965 - I have mislaid all documentation I had because at time it was just a watch- also changed strap to bracelet but I am very happy with it now - my pride and joy when going out with lads on Sunday morning sport.

Dave


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navitimer slide rule
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:03 pm 
Offline
Contributing Moderator
Contributing Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:09 am
Posts: 33671
Location: Ontario, Canada
As I said, I don't have a lot of time this week, but here are a few brief thoughts......

There are three main phases of 806.

The first generation from 1952 (assuming that you don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory that anything this early is really from around 1960) until the late 50s with black subs, the second generation up until the mid to late 60s with small white subs and the third generation with large white subs.

There is no transition date from one to the other - rather there are periods of transition - 59 to 63 for 1st to 2nd and then 67 onwards (maybe even slightly earlier) for 2nd to 3rd.

General consensus is that red started to appear with the 2nd generation, but it certainly wasn't consistent - there are multiple versions and there are definitely transitional pieces with all black later than red appeared.

We also know that all black subdials were available in the mid to late 60s, and potentially into the 70s because they were used in servicing. It's not unreasonable to assume that if they were used in servicing then they could also have been used in production, but I am not completely convinced on that.

Unfortunately there is plenty of evidence that Breitling didn't use original style material in servicing, instead they used what was available - there are any number of 1st generation watches with second generation hands that were replaced by Breitling. We also know that during the 70s controls at Breitling were extremely lacking as they struggled to survive.

I am sure that there are original pieces from the mid to late 60s with black subs, but I'm not (yet) convinced that they are anything but anomalies.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navitimer slide rule
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:31 am 
Offline
Breitling Fanatic
Breitling Fanatic

Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:21 am
Posts: 324
Location: UK
I agreee with you in terms of the broad three phases of Navitimer, all black, white sub-dials, enlarged sub-dials.
The more I look at the evidence it seems to me, that certainly throughout the Sixties, it would be reasonable to see all
three dial variants, either wihout red on the slide rule or with red arrowheads or boxes.

Interestingly the 1969 catalogue shows small sub-dials.

I think it's also reasonable to assume a certain initial quality control on the original factory produced watch that would
mean that they would be matched as I've described, with the slide rule and dial having either no red, or both having red.

I think the two documented Breitling's from Les and Kurt are very useful, and I have no reason to doubt their veracity,
because they are single owner watches in which the service history is fully known. Again both show matching non-red dials
and slide rules produced in the mid-Sixties.

There are certainly production anomalies by Breitling during this period as they transitioned between the same product line, I have seen for example the 765 AVI and the 765 Co-Pilot dated the same year (1966 if memory serves correct, although I'm not 100% sure).

In terms of the articles about Navitimer's, if memory serves me correctly, the first was Navitimer.net, then came Kurt's (although they may have been at the same time) and last was the Watchuseek article. Each built and fed off the other. Hopefully our discussions here can add to that as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Navitimer slide rule
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:25 am 
Offline
Contributing Moderator
Contributing Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:09 am
Posts: 33671
Location: Ontario, Canada
To correct my post from last night.....

When I said - "We also know that all black subdials were available in the mid to late 60s, and potentially into the 70s because they were used in servicing."

That should have been sliderules - serves me right for rushing.


Top
 Profile  
 

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
     

Top Watch Clocks Sites  Watch Top 100's by Connectingwatches.com  All Watch Sites 
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group